NdSC #42

This is the best way to explain it:

Swoosh:

When doing a swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be over and past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.

Arch/Mexi:

When doing an arch or a mexi, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.

Mexican Swoosh:

When doing a mexican swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, but the rope must shoot in the same direction as the direction you're travelling. Note, this is only possible for ONE frame at the very precipice of the flagpole extension.

For all 3, subpixels or slow motion does not count, just frame by frame using normal game speed.

Edit - Triad calls the Mexican Swoosh "The Jackpot Frame" lmao, I like it, it's true, it's actually stupidly but interestingly difficult to pull this off without going HORRIBLY slow!

I've been chatting with Triad on Discord and it seems this is what we're going to be using as standard for Darts from now on.

We are however going to allow both the swoosh and mexican swoosh for swoosh for Darts and Darts challenges in general.

Yeah, I am in favor of counting Mexican Swooshes valid for both Swoosh and Arch variations of Darts maps.

This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!

You find out cool shit like this all the time!

Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!

Blééé it all!

Will you send a run Dangerovic

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 04:38 PM
If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!

Yes that's funny, as I've said that totally could be its own trick. I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 04:38 PM
If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible

There's no technical reason for why there must be a 1 frame delay on the rope release in the first place, at least that I can think of. It should be possible keep track of a few variables and apply those variables on the frame the rope is actually released. That would make the ninja rope more responsive, fun and intuitive.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 05:19 PM
This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!

You find out cool shit like this all the time!

Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!

I do recognize this trick as its own thing. For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks. If a trick recognition system is ever implemented I think it would be cool if tricks that are executed on the first possible frame had some sort of distinction. It could have a different text color or be described as "Perfect", "Perfect Swoosh" for example. Other tricks could have a "Perfect" variant as well. For shadows it would be when the rope is only visible for one frame on the tap and for outlaws and spikes it would be when the rope is released on the first frame you bounce off a surface. Many other tricks may have a "Perfect" variant as well.

Quote from: Masta on April 24, 2024, 11:47 AM
If a trick recognition system is ever implemented I think it would be cool if tricks that are executed on the first possible frame had some sort of distinction. It could have a different text color or be described as "Perfect", "Perfect Swoosh" for example. Other tricks could have a "Perfect" variant as well. For shadows it would be when the rope is only visible for one frame on the tap and for outlaws and spikes it would be when the rope is released on the first frame you bounce off a surface. Many other tricks may have a "Perfect" variant as well.

A trick detection system would be really awesome. Imagine being able to play competitive warmers, basically something like Tony Hawk but for roping.

Quote from: Masta on April 24, 2024, 09:57 AM
I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.

Not sure what you think you achieved here but the same advice applies to you lol.

did I do so much? I won't do this again.

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 03:51 PM
did I do so much? I won't do this again.

You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.

Quote from: Triad on April 24, 2024, 04:21 PM

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 03:51 PM
did I do so much? I won't do this again.

You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.

I meant conversation. For example, I don't care what method I used to get to 15

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 04:31 PM
I meant conversation. For example, I don't care what method I used to get to 15

Oh, it's just W:A nerds (me included) nerding out about tiny details, mostly. Don't worry about it. All your runs are fine, no void shots.

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 04:31 PM

Quote from: Triad on April 24, 2024, 04:21 PM

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 03:51 PM
did I do so much? I won't do this again.

You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.

I meant conversation. For example, I don't care what method I used to get to 15

Well, as long as it's what we consider to be either a swoosh or a mexican swoosh then it's fine.

The good thing is, we know absolutely how to judge it efficiently now.

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The difference between Masta and I seems to be the way in which we measure the validity of a move. He said and I quote - "For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks" which means he counts the missing frames that you cannot see normally. I highly doubt anybody even knew this was possible before replays and TA was available.

On the other hand I measure every move based on what you see with the normal frame by frame replay, and if replays weren't available, you'd record it and slow it down showing effectively the same thing. Instead of using TA to show "what we actually meant to happen but doesn't actually happen unless you use THIS specific replay feature to analyze it".

Speaking about those missing frames... They don't exist naturally do they? Those were added to the game via "tweening" weren't they? If this is the case then it's even stronger support to why I don't consider the move that Shtaket did a genuine swoosh. We don't measure moves by the direction the rope shoots only, we also measure them with what we see, the position we're in as we do them etc.

It's actually weird to me why the game was designed like this now, like, why not just show the LAST part of the frame instead of the first as it's being executed? Anyway I'm sure there's a reason for it. If that's the way it really is, then why not just show it like that? Though, that would take away this frame perfect new move we discovered lol.

Regardless of which way you record, it's interesting that in 25 years of playing this game, I've never seen that before!

Not sure if this is trick race or darts.